God Sees Those In The Womb As Fully Human

[John]

In starting this thread, I realize that there are many here that are not Christian, and do not believe the Bible is the Word of God.  I am not posting this for those people.  I do know there are some here that are professing Christians, and I was pleasantly surprised to learn Rusty is a professing Christian.  Since this is not a "Christian" forum, but a general forum covering a lot of different topics, I thought it best to discuss this kind of thing in the section labeled as "Religion and Spiritual aspect of life," and I appreciate the fact that Dyanna set up this area for this kind of discussion.  

When it comes to the topic of abortion, you will not find the word abortion in the Bible, but you will find plenty of examples of God expressing that He sees those in the womb as human beings, not potential humans, zygotes or a fetus.  They are children in His sight.  I mentioned this scripture in another thread, but this is the best one to kick of this new thread.  It is in Jeremiah 1:5. God is speaking to the Prophet Jeremiah, and He says the following.

Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

God knows everything.  Before He created the first man and woman, he knew them and He also knew every single person that would ever be conceived going forward till the final person would be conceived at some time in the future.  In the case of Jeremiah, God tells Him that before He formed him in the belly, He knew Jeremiah.  He knew him as Jeremiah, not a thing.  Before Jeremiah came out of the womb, God had already separated him and ordained him to be a prophet to the nations.  To have aborted him would not have been to simply terminate a pregnancy, but it would have been murdering a prophet.  That is how God sees it.  This is not the only example of God recognizing a child in the womb as fully human.  

There was a man called Isaac, and he had a wife named Rebekah that had been barren.  Isaac prayed to God for her, and the Lord answered his prayer, and Rebekah his wife conceived.  Something that was very important in Bible times was the rights of the first born.  The first-born son would get the blessing and the birthright.  Notice what happens in Genesis 25:22-23

And the children struggled together within her; and she said, If it be so, why am I thus?  And she went to inquire of the LORD.  And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.  

God makes it clear that they are children in her womb, not potential children and not a fetus.  God even goes on to tell Rebekkah things about her children, which all come to pass.  These are two examples from the Bible, but there are more.  This is enough to start off with in the opening post.  

[John]

There are so many things that are interesting in the Bible. One of them is how God would choose to open and close the womb of a woman when He wanted them to conceive a child. If you read in Genesis about the 12 patriarchs, it is amazing how much God was in control. He used 4 women to have all 12 of them according to His will. I am not going to bother posting all of the scriptures about that because there is so many, but I do want to show you another example of twins in the womb struggling for the birthright that belongs to the firstborn. This is in Genesis 38. Judah's daughter-in-law lost her husband, and Judah promised to give his son to her for a husband, but he did not do it. In order to have a child, she pretended to be a harlot, and became pregnant by Judah. It was to raise up seed to her husband. These were the customs of the day. When it is knows she is pregnant, Judah is angry, but she had a pledge from him proving he was the Father of her children. Verses 25 through 30 says the following.

When she was brought forth, she sent to her father in law, saying, By the man, whose these are, am I with child:
and she said, Discern, I pray thee, whose are these, the signet, and bracelets, and staff. And Judah acknowleged them, and said, She hath been more righteous than I; because that I gave her not to Shelah my son. And he knew her again no more. And it came to pass in the time of her travail, behold, twins were in her womb. And it came to pass, when she travailed, that the one put out his hand: and the midwife took and bound upon his hand a scarlet thread, saying, This came out first. And it came to pass, as he drew back his hand, that, behold, his brother came out: and she said, How hast thou broken forth? this breach be upon thee: therefore his name was called Pharez. And afterward came out his brother, that had the scarlet thread upon his hand: and his name was called Zarah.

The name Pharez means "a breach." That is not really important, but just something to take note of. I often wonder about how much awareness an unborn baby has. We know they have some, because even doctors have said it is helpful to expose them to music while they are still in the womb. Also, most acknowledge that one way they are connected to their Mother after birth is by her voice they became used to while in the womb. I tend to think that even in the womb, these children had some awareness of the value of being the firstborn. It definitely appears that way in this example and with regard to Jacob and Esau. Anyway, she does not tell Jacob she is with fetus, but with child, and we see this struggle taking place once again in the womb.

I plan to bring up New Testament examples next, but even before I do that, we know that God knew Moses before he was conceived, and that God created him to be the deliverer of the children of Israel. There is not a child that is ever conceived that God does not have a purpose for, even those who are handicapped. That is right. Even those children with things like Down's Syndrome or autism, God has a purpose for those lives. Here is a scripture that is easily overlooked. God was speaking to Moses, and this is what He told him. Exodus 4:11

And the LORD said unto him. Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?

God made everyone the way they are for a reason. We do not always know why, but there is a purpose for every single life.

[John]

In this next example I shall give, we see how God knew John the Baptist before he had been conceived, as was the case with the prophet Jeremiah. From Luke 1:11-17, it says

And there appeared unto him an angel of the Lord standing on the right side of the altar of incense. And when Zacharias saw him, he was troubled, and fear fell upon him. But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John. And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth. For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb. And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God. And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

God already knew this child as John before he was conceived. Later on, in Luke 1:39-44, we again see the humanity of John and his awareness of what was happening around him, while he was still in Elisabeth's womb.

And Mary arose in those days, and went into the hill country with haste, into a city of Juda; And entered into the house of Zacharias, and saluted Elisabeth. And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost. And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.

In the eyes of God, Elisabeth was carrying a baby named John and Mary was carrying a baby named Jesus. They were not a fetus to God, but a child. The baby John was aware enough to be filled with joy at the news that Mary had conceived the Christ child, and he leaped for joy.

Again, I realize none of these things will matter to unbelievers, but to those of us that believe in God, and that the Bible is God's Word, there is no way we can be anything but pro-life on the issue of abortion.

[Deleted]

Thanks for posting these verses in one thread. It will help me in witnessing to those on the fence on the abortion issue.