Date Joined: May 20, 2022 16:28:37 GMT -5
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Post by apple on Jan 1, 2023 14:15:44 GMT -5
I don't know too much about what the rules are regarding free speach in the US or with the Biden govenment. But here in Canada we do have laws in place. And that is a very good thing in my opinion. I don't think it's right for extremists to openly throw out hate towards those they don't like. Hate creates hate, the further we can get away from that the better. There is a difference between free speach and hate speech. And knowing that difference is very important. I think Apple said it very well a few posts up. Does that include hatred of speech that you hate? If it's true that "hate creates hate" what effect does your hatred of certain types of speech create? That's why freedom of speech is so important... that and, who gets to be the arbiter of what is and isn't allowed? One person's hate is another person's protection. Hatred of speech you hate. Seriously..
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Date Joined: Nov 15, 2022 19:45:02 GMT -5
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Post by Justbec on Jan 1, 2023 14:20:29 GMT -5
That's why freedom of speech is so important... that and, who gets to be the arbiter of what is and isn't allowed? One person's hate is another person's protection. That was my question as well. Just who gets to decide what is hate speech? I could say I hate anyone that wear Bermuda shorts and flip flops. Is that hate speech? To someone wearing Bermuda shorts and flip flops it might be.
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Date Joined: Jun 7, 2010 10:10:35 GMT -5
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Post by deyana on Jan 1, 2023 15:58:31 GMT -5
I could never defend what past dictators (for instance) have spewed. Murderers like Hitler and his cronies influenced a whole generation of Germans with their hate speeches. And urged them on to shun, kill and look upon their own neighbors as vermin basically and all because they were Jews. That is what hate speech can produce.I am fine with hearing differences of opinions to myself, even those I may disagree with very much. That's life. But there is a line that needs to be drawn between that (allowing free speech) and allowing hate speech and the damage that can do. You are confusing speech with action. I can defend all speech, but I can only defend good action. Words matter though, Richard. Words are powerful. And words or what we speak leads to action.
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Date Joined: Jun 7, 2010 10:10:35 GMT -5
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Post by deyana on Jan 1, 2023 16:03:22 GMT -5
I don't know too much about what the rules are regarding free speach in the US or with the Biden govenment. But here in Canada we do have laws in place. And that is a very good thing in my opinion. I don't think it's right for extremists to openly throw out hate towards those they don't like. Hate creates hate, the further we can get away from that the better. There is a difference between free speach and hate speech. And knowing that difference is very important. I think Apple said it very well a few posts up. Does that include hatred of speech that you hate? If it's true that "hate creates hate" what effect does your hatred of certain types of speech create? That's why freedom of speech is so important... that and, who gets to be the arbiter of what is and isn't allowed? One person's hate is another person's protection. Well I am hoping that we, as people, have learned something from the mistakes of others that went before us. We already have freedom of speech, in the West. But we shouldn't have the freedom to incite hatred with our words. It really isn't that hard to determine the difference between the two.
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Date Joined: Nov 15, 2022 19:45:02 GMT -5
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Post by Justbec on Jan 1, 2023 16:06:22 GMT -5
Words matter though, Richard. Words are powerful. And words or what we speak leads to action. I agree but who determines the limit? Normally I would say Congress but they are as bad as the lunatics out there. Is that hate speech? I would think so but she was applauded by Policians. Is that hate speech? I am positive there are more examples, including ones from Republicans but those two stood out to me. They are inciting violence against a group of people, yet absolutely nothing was done.
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Date Joined: Oct 11, 2011 19:28:34 GMT -5
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Post by romaniprincess on Jan 1, 2023 16:07:58 GMT -5
Any civilised society rests on the basis of mutually respected individual rights.
The right to free speech isn't a license to incite hatred or diss people without any comeback.
I've been called a 'gy--o,' a pikey and even the P--i word because my skin is brown.
I know others like im2 for instance have suffered racial insults as well as discrimination (as have us Romanies.)
And is it 'free speech' to stand (for instance) outside a synagogue and shout 'kill the Jews?' I don't think so.
As the saying goes, with freedom comes responsibility.
And with tolerance comes a refusal to tolerate intolerance.
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Date Joined: Nov 15, 2022 19:45:02 GMT -5
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Post by Justbec on Jan 1, 2023 16:11:05 GMT -5
Any civilised society rests on the basis of mutually respected individual rights. The right to free speech isn't a license to incite hatred or diss people without any comeback. I've been called a 'gy--o,' a pikey and even the P--i word because my skin is brown. I know others like im2 for instance have suffered racial insults as well as discrimination (as have us Romanies.) And is it 'free speech' to stand (for instance) outside a synagogue and shout 'kill the Jews?' I don't think so. As the saying goes, with freedom comes responsibility. And with tolerance comes a refusal to tolerate intolerance. Yes and I have been call fat, I have been called an ugly bitch, a racist, a White Supremist and other things including a raggedy old white woman. Is that hate speech or is that just rude behavior by people who like to be insulting?
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Date Joined: May 20, 2022 16:28:37 GMT -5
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Post by apple on Jan 1, 2023 16:53:59 GMT -5
Does that include hatred of speech that you hate? If it's true that "hate creates hate" what effect does your hatred of certain types of speech create? That's why freedom of speech is so important... that and, who gets to be the arbiter of what is and isn't allowed? One person's hate is another person's protection. Well I am hoping that we, as people, have learned something from the mistakes of others that went before us. We already have freedom of speech, in the West. But we shouldn't have the freedom to incite hatred with our words. It really isn't that hard to determine the difference between the two.
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Date Joined: Jun 7, 2010 10:10:35 GMT -5
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Post by deyana on Jan 1, 2023 21:33:34 GMT -5
Any civilised society rests on the basis of mutually respected individual rights. The right to free speech isn't a license to incite hatred or diss people without any comeback. I've been called a 'gy--o,' a pikey and even the P--i word because my skin is brown. I know others like im2 for instance have suffered racial insults as well as discrimination (as have us Romanies.) And is it 'free speech' to stand (for instance) outside a synagogue and shout 'kill the Jews?' I don't think so. As the saying goes, with freedom comes responsibility. And with tolerance comes a refusal to tolerate intolerance. Yes, that ^
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Date Joined: Dec 29, 2022 22:16:23 GMT -5
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Post by RichardInTN on Jan 1, 2023 22:52:08 GMT -5
There's an old but valuable saying:"I disagree with what you are saying, but I will defend your right to say it"... that includes so-called "hate speech". Yes! I love that saying. It goes for the flag to. While watching someone burn the flag infuriates me to no end I will defend their right to do it. Of course I will also cheer anyone who kicks the crap out of them. LOL Exactly. One's right to be free of governmental interference while using their free speech doesn't remove the consequences by non-governmental entities who may think that their "speech" is a load of crap.
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Date Joined: Dec 29, 2022 22:16:23 GMT -5
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Post by RichardInTN on Jan 1, 2023 22:53:37 GMT -5
Does that include hatred of speech that you hate? If it's true that "hate creates hate" what effect does your hatred of certain types of speech create? That's why freedom of speech is so important... that and, who gets to be the arbiter of what is and isn't allowed? One person's hate is another person's protection. Hatred of speech you hate. Seriously.. Yes. Seriously."Hate creates hate" is the saying I was commenting on after all.
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Date Joined: Dec 29, 2022 22:16:23 GMT -5
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Post by RichardInTN on Jan 1, 2023 22:59:15 GMT -5
You are confusing speech with action. I can defend all speech, but I can only defend good action. Words matter though, Richard. Words are powerful. And words or what we speak leads to action. Words do matter. I agree. And when words lead to action then we need to denounce the action. There's no such thing as "partial free speech"... either you have free speech... or you don't. And when you don't, someone decides what you can and cannot say... and who's to say that they will always only go after "hate speech" that you agree is hate speech? Remember the old parable by Niemöller... First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a trade unionist. Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew. Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me. Freedom of Speech is a lot like that.
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Date Joined: Dec 29, 2022 22:16:23 GMT -5
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Post by RichardInTN on Jan 1, 2023 23:02:16 GMT -5
Does that include hatred of speech that you hate? If it's true that "hate creates hate" what effect does your hatred of certain types of speech create? That's why freedom of speech is so important... that and, who gets to be the arbiter of what is and isn't allowed? One person's hate is another person's protection. Well I am hoping that we, as people, have learned something from the mistakes of others that went before us. We already have freedom of speech, in the West. But we shouldn't have the freedom to incite hatred with our words. It really isn't that hard to determine the difference between the two. I have two situations for you... Gay marriage. Abortion. In both cases a lot said by "the other side" is "hateful"... no matter which side you are on. Under your idea of partial free speech (where no one can say things that are hate speech)... which side do you silence?
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Date Joined: Dec 29, 2022 22:16:23 GMT -5
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Post by RichardInTN on Jan 1, 2023 23:07:00 GMT -5
Any civilised society rests on the basis of mutually respected individual rights. The right to free speech isn't a license to incite hatred or diss people without any comeback. I've been called a 'gy--o,' a pikey and even the P--i word because my skin is brown. I know others like im2 for instance have suffered racial insults as well as discrimination (as have us Romanies.) And is it 'free speech' to stand (for instance) outside a synagogue and shout 'kill the Jews?' I don't think so. As the saying goes, with freedom comes responsibility. And with tolerance comes a refusal to tolerate intolerance. I've got to say I have no clue what "gy--o" or "P--i" stand for... but I am guessing that they are nasty slang descriptors of some kind. As to the last line, how can you have tolerance if you don't tolerate intolerance by others... especially if their intolerance is based on some religious belief (as is often the case)?
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Date Joined: May 20, 2022 16:28:37 GMT -5
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Post by apple on Jan 1, 2023 23:15:20 GMT -5
Hatred of speech you hate. Seriously.. Yes. Seriously."Hate creates hate" is the saying I was commenting on after all. Right so in your world people who are not okay with racist, sexist or homophobic statements are hateful.
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Date Joined: Dec 29, 2022 22:16:23 GMT -5
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Post by RichardInTN on Jan 1, 2023 23:29:35 GMT -5
Yes. Seriously."Hate creates hate" is the saying I was commenting on after all. Right so in your world people who are not okay with racist, sexist or homophobic statements are hateful. Not what I said. It's got nothing to do with being okay with hate speech... it's whether or not it should be regulated by law. And, for the record, I dislike anything hateful that's said to or about other people... but what I find to be hateful and what you find to be hateful may not be the same things... now multiply that out by all the people of the places that love freedom, and you should be able to see the problem with governmental policing of speech.
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Date Joined: Nov 15, 2022 19:45:02 GMT -5
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Post by Justbec on Jan 2, 2023 12:01:57 GMT -5
Words do matter. I agree. And when words lead to action then we need to denounce the action. There's no such thing as "partial free speech"... either you have free speech... or you don't. And when you don't, someone decides what you can and cannot say... and who's to say that they will always only go after "hate speech" that you agree is hate speech? Remember the old parable by Niemöller... First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a trade unionist. Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew. Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me. Freedom of Speech is a lot like that. That is a perfect choice.
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Date Joined: Jun 7, 2010 10:10:35 GMT -5
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Post by deyana on Jan 2, 2023 12:08:07 GMT -5
Yes. Seriously."Hate creates hate" is the saying I was commenting on after all. Why would you want to live in a world of hate? A place where words that incite hatred of others is okay?
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Date Joined: Nov 15, 2022 19:45:02 GMT -5
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Post by Justbec on Jan 2, 2023 12:12:10 GMT -5
Yes. Seriously."Hate creates hate" is the saying I was commenting on after all. Why would you want to live in a world of hate? A place where words that incite hatred of others is okay? I don't think anyone wants to but look at the world now. It's not exactly a happy place.
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Date Joined: Jun 7, 2010 10:10:35 GMT -5
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Post by deyana on Jan 2, 2023 12:14:38 GMT -5
I have two situations for you... Gay marriage. Abortion. In both cases a lot said by "the other side" is "hateful"... no matter which side you are on. Under your idea of partial free speech (where no one can say things that are hate speech)... which side do you silence? You know for most it is pretty simple. As an example, some could say:"I am against abortion for so an so reasons, it should never happen..." or alternatively they could say""Anyone who has an abortion should be arrested, sterilized and put on death row". Do you see the difference? Both are opinions - but only one of those is inciting hatred and violence. Richard, deep down you must know why Hate speech is wrong. It serves no purpose other than to rile people up to do things that are wrong, and sometimes even deadly and illegal.
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