Date Joined: Jun 7, 2010 10:10:35 GMT -5
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Post by deyana on Jan 2, 2023 12:19:06 GMT -5
Right so in your world people who are not okay with racist, sexist or homophobic statements are hateful. It does seem there is a lot of hate for such people. It's because some people out there are afraid of change. The fear comes from thinking that something is going to be taken from them.
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Date Joined: Jun 7, 2010 10:10:35 GMT -5
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Post by deyana on Jan 2, 2023 12:21:26 GMT -5
Why would you want to live in a world of hate? A place where words that incite hatred of others is okay? I don't think anyone wants to but look at the world now. It's not exactly a happy place. But we can't just give up.
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Date Joined: Nov 15, 2022 19:45:02 GMT -5
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Post by Justbec on Jan 2, 2023 12:49:11 GMT -5
It's because some people out there are afraid of change. The fear comes from thinking that something is going to be taken from them. In some ways I can understand that fear. You work hard all your life for things and to build up a savings and then the Government comes along and decides you have too much money so they raise your taxes. Or folks that have ideas like @naz come along and say well you have too much property so I'm going to help myself to half of it and buy it from you and you can't stop me. I can tell you personally after the riots here in Minnapolis 2 years ago when BLM and Antifa announced they were coming to the rural areas next, we went out and bought guns. Cause no one's going to hurt my family or animals without a fight. Now does that mean hate speech is right, no, but it just means I can understand some of the fear.
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Date Joined: Jun 7, 2010 10:10:35 GMT -5
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Post by deyana on Jan 2, 2023 12:52:00 GMT -5
It's because some people out there are afraid of change. The fear comes from thinking that something is going to be taken from them. Should they be hated for that? I don't hate them. But I don't want people to incite hatred against others.
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Date Joined: Nov 15, 2022 19:45:02 GMT -5
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Post by Justbec on Jan 2, 2023 12:55:56 GMT -5
Wait, where did I say you have too much property? I didn't mean you directly, but you thoughts on property.
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Date Joined: Nov 15, 2022 19:45:02 GMT -5
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Post by Justbec on Jan 2, 2023 12:57:38 GMT -5
Justbec , this really belongs in the other thread but if you can understand why owning property is so important to you perhaps you can understand why landless people might like a little slice of the pie too? I do understand, but I just don't think they should get that slice by taking it from people who already own it and don't want to sell, even IF it's property they aren't using.
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Date Joined: Jun 7, 2010 10:10:35 GMT -5
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Post by deyana on Jan 2, 2023 12:59:02 GMT -5
It's because some people out there are afraid of change. The fear comes from thinking that something is going to be taken from them. In some ways I can understand that fear. You work hard all your life for things and to build up a savings and then the Government comes along and decides you have too much money so they raise your taxes. Or folks that have ideas like @naz come along and say well you have too much property so I'm going to help myself to half of it and buy it from you and you can't stop me. I can tell you personally after the riots here in Minnapolis 2 years ago when BLM and Antifa announced they were coming to the rural areas next, we went out and bought guns. Cause no one's going to hurt my family or animals without a fight. Now does that mean hate speech is right, no, but it just means I can understand some of the fear. You know I can understand why the fear is there. On both sides. But we (as in people in general) have to find a way to get over that for the good of all. Because what we have now is really not working. We have to stop throwing hurtful and hateful words at each other (WE as in people in general) and try and find solutions to the many problems that societies are now facing. Now more than ever. These last couple of years have been crazy. I think we can all agree on that. SO much has happened, not just in the USA, and in Canada but around the world. I have children and it saddens me that this is what we are leaving them. We all have to try harder to do better. Otherwise we will destroy all the good that we now have and be left with nothing but the bad.
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Date Joined: Jun 7, 2010 10:10:35 GMT -5
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Post by deyana on Jan 2, 2023 13:00:47 GMT -5
I don't hate them. But I don't want people to incite hatred against others. But my point was a lot of people do. While at the same time saying hatred is wrong. Well then we all need to do better, be better, right?
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Date Joined: Nov 15, 2022 19:45:02 GMT -5
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Post by Justbec on Jan 2, 2023 13:06:57 GMT -5
I have children and it saddens me that this is what we are leaving them. We all have to try harder to do better. Otherwise we will destroy all the good that we now have and be left with nothing but the bad. When I look at America and the direction she is headed, I am glad I chose not to bring children into this world.
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Date Joined: May 20, 2022 16:28:37 GMT -5
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Post by apple on Jan 2, 2023 13:38:37 GMT -5
Should they be hated for that? I don't hate them. But I don't want people to incite hatred against others. Exactly.
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Date Joined: Dec 29, 2022 22:16:23 GMT -5
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Post by RichardInTN on Jan 2, 2023 23:28:26 GMT -5
Exactly. One's right to be free of governmental interference while using their free speech doesn't remove the consequences by non-governmental entities who may think that their "speech" is a load of crap. If burning the flag is free speech then it is up to the police to protect people from violence for exercising it. That is the job of the police... I agree. I don't advocate for violence. When I say "freedom of speech has non-governmental consequences" I mean more along the lines of:(example) If someone who publicly burns a flag gets fired from a non-governmental job because their boss supports the flag, that's a consequence that they asked for.
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Date Joined: May 20, 2022 16:28:37 GMT -5
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Post by apple on Jan 2, 2023 23:32:53 GMT -5
If burning the flag is free speech then it is up to the police to protect people from violence for exercising it. That is the job of the police... I agree. I don't advocate for violence. When I say "freedom of speech has non-governmental consequences" I mean more along the lines of:(example) If someone who publicly burns a flag gets fired from a non-governmental job because their boss supports the flag, that's a consequence that they asked for. Unless an employee burns a flag at work, that is not grounds for dismissal.
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Date Joined: Dec 29, 2022 22:16:23 GMT -5
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Post by RichardInTN on Jan 2, 2023 23:34:25 GMT -5
Yes. Seriously."Hate creates hate" is the saying I was commenting on after all. Why would you want to live in a world of hate? A place where words that incite hatred of others is okay? I don't want to live in a world of hate... but people have the right to hate if they want to. It's called freedom of thought.... something that you can't have without freedom of speech, because speech directs thought. Why would you want to live in a world of intolerance? That's what suppression of speech is.... being intolerant of it. I may not like hate speech or hateful thoughts... but everyone should have the right to express and have that if they want it. I don't want someone telling me what I can and cannot say and it would be hypocritical of me to support that against others.
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Date Joined: Dec 29, 2022 22:16:23 GMT -5
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Post by RichardInTN on Jan 2, 2023 23:43:00 GMT -5
I have two situations for you... Gay marriage. Abortion. In both cases a lot said by "the other side" is "hateful"... no matter which side you are on. Under your idea of partial free speech (where no one can say things that are hate speech)... which side do you silence? You know for most it is pretty simple. As an example, some could say:"I am against abortion for so an so reasons, it should never happen..." or alternatively they could say""Anyone who has an abortion should be arrested, sterilized and put on death row". Do you see the difference? Both are opinions - but only one of those is inciting hatred and violence. That depends on which side of the debate you are on... and how extreme your view is... as to whether or not there's a difference. (using your anti-choice examples) To some, any restriction no matter how couched in polite language, is seen as violence against one's autonomy."You hate my freedom to choose!" That's hate speech BY THEIR DEFINITION. Richard, deep down you must know why Hate speech is wrong. It serves no purpose other than to rile people up to do things that are wrong, and sometimes even deadly and illegal. Oh, I know why it's wrong... I also know why it MUST be allowed (legally) even though it IS wrong. Once you legally censor one thing, you can legally censor anything because precedent has been set.
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Date Joined: Dec 29, 2022 22:16:23 GMT -5
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Post by RichardInTN on Jan 2, 2023 23:49:20 GMT -5
In some ways I can understand that fear. You work hard all your life for things and to build up a savings and then the Government comes along and decides you have too much money so they raise your taxes. Or folks that have ideas like @naz come along and say well you have too much property so I'm going to help myself to half of it and buy it from you and you can't stop me. I can tell you personally after the riots here in Minnapolis 2 years ago when BLM and Antifa announced they were coming to the rural areas next, we went out and bought guns. Cause no one's going to hurt my family or animals without a fight. Now does that mean hate speech is right, no, but it just means I can understand some of the fear. You know I can understand why the fear is there. On both sides. But we (as in people in general) have to find a way to get over that for the good of all. Because what we have now is really not working. We have to stop throwing hurtful and hateful words at each other (WE as in people in general) and try and find solutions to the many problems that societies are now facing. Now more than ever. These last couple of years have been crazy. I think we can all agree on that. SO much has happened, not just in the USA, and in Canada but around the world. I have children and it saddens me that this is what we are leaving them. We all have to try harder to do better. Otherwise we will destroy all the good that we now have and be left with nothing but the bad. I agree... but we don't get to that better place by replacing one bad with another bad. Replacing hate with government censorship is NOT an improvement. Plus... isn't it nice to know who has the bad thoughts/ideas... that way people can avoid them?
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Date Joined: Dec 29, 2022 22:16:23 GMT -5
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Post by RichardInTN on Jan 2, 2023 23:50:52 GMT -5
I have children and it saddens me that this is what we are leaving them. We all have to try harder to do better. Otherwise we will destroy all the good that we now have and be left with nothing but the bad. When I look at America and the direction she is headed, I am glad I chose not to bring children into this world. Sadly... I agree (I also have not had any children).
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Date Joined: Dec 29, 2022 22:16:23 GMT -5
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Post by RichardInTN on Jan 2, 2023 23:55:16 GMT -5
You know for most it is pretty simple. As an example, some could say:"I am against abortion for so an so reasons, it should never happen..." or alternatively they could say""Anyone who has an abortion should be arrested, sterilized and put on death row". Do you see the difference? Both are opinions - but only one of those is inciting hatred and violence. Richard, deep down you must know why Hate speech is wrong. It serves no purpose other than to rile people up to do things that are wrong, and sometimes even deadly and illegal. People who believe abortion is murder want criminal penalties imposed on those who perform them. They have a right to express those opinions. People that believe that don't understand that for the word "murder" to apply, it must be the ILLEGAL taking of a human life. For that reason abortion (done according to the law and with consent of the law) cannot be "murder"... no matter how someone feels about it. I accept people's "it's against my beliefs" or "against my religion" arguments... even if I don't support them. But they lose me when they violate the definitions of words "because they feel like it". Words mean something... and it's important that those meanings matter.
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Date Joined: Dec 29, 2022 22:16:23 GMT -5
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Post by RichardInTN on Jan 2, 2023 23:58:25 GMT -5
That is the job of the police... I agree. I don't advocate for violence. When I say "freedom of speech has non-governmental consequences" I mean more along the lines of:(example) If someone who publicly burns a flag gets fired from a non-governmental job because their boss supports the flag, that's a consequence that they asked for. Unless an employee burns a flag at work, that is not grounds for dismissal. Sure it is... in a free country. It's called "at-will employment"... the "at-will" part works both ways, people can quit without notice for any reason... and they can also be canned for any reason.
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Date Joined: May 18, 2024 16:53:34 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2023 6:44:36 GMT -5
That is the job of the police... I agree. I don't advocate for violence. When I say "freedom of speech has non-governmental consequences" I mean more along the lines of:(example) If someone who publicly burns a flag gets fired from a non-governmental job because their boss supports the flag, that's a consequence that they asked for. Unless an employee burns a flag at work, that is not grounds for dismissal. Why not? I thought employers owned our lives 24/7 and if one posts something on facebook or does anything the employer doesn't like, they get to can you.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2023 6:47:12 GMT -5
Yes. Seriously."Hate creates hate" is the saying I was commenting on after all. Why would you want to live in a world of hate? A place where words that incite hatred of others is okay? Shutting people up doesn't stop hate. If anything it breeds more resentment and fuels the fires. Better to just know where someone stands and who they are. As for "hate speech", it is not clear what is "hate speech". Being against transgendering children with drugs and hormones and allowing teachers to use alternate pronouns behind the parent's backs has been labeled as "hate speech". It is a labeled tossed around now to try to censor opinions that someone else doesn't like.
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