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Date Joined: Aug 13, 2023 13:33:15 GMT -5
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Post by fuzzems on Nov 29, 2023 6:58:18 GMT -5
Would kind of like to have a discussion that isn't "but Trump....but Biden....". A debate about larger questions outside of the politics. Is anyone interested in that?
Debate Question of the Day:
Is healthcare a human right?
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Date Joined: Mar 14, 2016 18:48:07 GMT -5
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Post by Springschick on Nov 29, 2023 8:14:10 GMT -5
No, it is not. If it were, it would basically enslave doctors and other health care workers. They would no longer be able to say no to potential patients, lest they violate the patients rights. If you think doctors are expensive now, just wait until they need to retain civil rights lawyers on top of malpractice.
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Date Joined: Jun 7, 2010 10:10:35 GMT -5
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Post by deyana on Nov 29, 2023 21:30:51 GMT -5
I think it should be. But it's not in most parts of the world.
Some have good health care, some have minimal, some have none sadly.
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Date Joined: Nov 15, 2023 19:44:16 GMT -5
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Post by Justbec on Nov 29, 2023 21:43:46 GMT -5
In a world of Lollipops and candy canes yes. But no it's not.
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Date Joined: Aug 13, 2023 13:33:15 GMT -5
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Post by fuzzems on Nov 30, 2023 9:18:57 GMT -5
A right is something generally protected FROM government action. Right to speech. Freedom of thought. Freedom of religion. It is not an entitlement to goods or services. Right to life means govt can't just wrongfully put you to death. But they are not compelled to keep intervene to keep you alive at all costs either.
And in order to say it's a "right" would require then enslaving someone else to this right. Then the State would have to subjugate health care providers, Doctors, nurses as indentured servants of the State. So no healthcare is NOT a right.
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Date Joined: Apr 5, 2018 3:27:17 GMT -5
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Post by sb on Nov 30, 2023 11:28:43 GMT -5
No, it is not. If it were, it would basically enslave doctors and other health care workers. They would no longer be able to say no to potential patients, lest they violate the patients rights. If you think doctors are expensive now, just wait until they need to retain civil rights lawyers on top of malpractice. This is not to say that we don't want to get basic health care to as many citizens as we possibly can, we do. What we don't want is to muddy the issue with inaccurate and inflammatory language. |
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Date Joined: Mar 14, 2016 18:48:07 GMT -5
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Post by Springschick on Nov 30, 2023 12:32:20 GMT -5
No, it is not. If it were, it would basically enslave doctors and other health care workers. They would no longer be able to say no to potential patients, lest they violate the patients rights. If you think doctors are expensive now, just wait until they need to retain civil rights lawyers on top of malpractice. This is not to say that we don't want to get basic health care to as many citizens as we possibly can, we do. What we don't want is to muddy the issue with inaccurate and inflammatory language. Agreed. Everyone should have access to some sort of health care. However, if you make it a right, I would predict that there would be much less people willing to enter the medical profession if they knew they would have to shell out a small fortune for their education and training only to be beholden to anyone, anywhere, any time, as they would not be allowed to violate a person's rights, thereby eliminating their own. |
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Date Joined: May 20, 2022 16:28:37 GMT -5
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Post by apple on Nov 30, 2023 12:39:07 GMT -5
This is not to say that we don't want to get basic health care to as many citizens as we possibly can, we do. What we don't want is to muddy the issue with inaccurate and inflammatory language. Agreed. Everyone should have access to some sort of health care. However, if you make it a right, I would predict that there would be much less people willing to enter the medical profession if they knew they would have to shell out a small fortune for their education and training only to be beholden to anyone, anywhere, any time, as they would not be allowed to violate a person's rights, thereby eliminating their own. How would medical education change? I am unclear on how exactly they would be "beholden to anyone, anywhere, any time, as they would not be allowed to violate a person's rights, thereby eliminating their own" |
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Date Joined: Mar 14, 2016 18:48:07 GMT -5
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Post by Springschick on Nov 30, 2023 14:32:48 GMT -5
Agreed. Everyone should have access to some sort of health care. However, if you make it a right, I would predict that there would be much less people willing to enter the medical profession if they knew they would have to shell out a small fortune for their education and training only to be beholden to anyone, anywhere, any time, as they would not be allowed to violate a person's rights, thereby eliminating their own. How would medical education change? I am unclear on how exactly they would be "beholden to anyone, anywhere, any time, as they would not be allowed to violate a person's rights, thereby eliminating their own" If healthcare is a right, refusing someone healthcare on demand would be a violation of their civil rights. Civil rights don't work on a 9:09 - 5:00 basis, but are 24/7. I foresee less people wanting to shell out for extended medical education if the end result means they are always on call at all times for any reason. How could that not infringe on the providers rights? It takes away their ability to say no. A right is a very serious thing. Who would you like to see forced to take care of anyone who asks at any time? If they say no, that is a potential civil rights violation lawsuit. A right is too strong for this situation. |
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Date Joined: May 20, 2022 16:28:37 GMT -5
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Post by apple on Nov 30, 2023 16:15:59 GMT -5
How would medical education change? I am unclear on how exactly they would be "beholden to anyone, anywhere, any time, as they would not be allowed to violate a person's rights, thereby eliminating their own" If healthcare is a right, refusing someone healthcare on demand would be a violation of their civil rights. Civil rights don't work on a 9:09 - 5:00 basis, but are 24/7. I foresee less people wanting to shell out for extended medical education if the end result means they are always on call at all times for any reason. How could that not infringe on the providers rights? It takes away their ability to say no. A right is a very serious thing. Who would you like to see forced to take care of anyone who asks at any time? If they say no, that is a potential civil rights violation lawsuit. A right is too strong for this situation. Many nations specifically include a right to health or a right to health care in their Constitution. This does not mean every health care provider is on call 24/7. Access to healthcare means you can go to a GP, during their work hours or visit emergency otherwise. I think you are overthinking this. |
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Date Joined: Mar 14, 2016 18:48:07 GMT -5
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Post by Springschick on Nov 30, 2023 16:19:20 GMT -5
If healthcare is a right, refusing someone healthcare on demand would be a violation of their civil rights. Civil rights don't work on a 9:09 - 5:00 basis, but are 24/7. I foresee less people wanting to shell out for extended medical education if the end result means they are always on call at all times for any reason. How could that not infringe on the providers rights? It takes away their ability to say no. A right is a very serious thing. Who would you like to see forced to take care of anyone who asks at any time? If they say no, that is a potential civil rights violation lawsuit. A right is too strong for this situation. Many nations specifically include a right to health or a right to health care in their Constitution. This does not mean every health care provider is on call 24/7. Access to healthcare means you can go to a GP, during their work hours or visit emergency otherwise. I think you are overthinking this. Am I? You are talking access during hours, or an ER after hours. That is fine. But if you make it a right, who is able to deny that right? And if it able to be denied, is it truly a right? |
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Date Joined: May 20, 2022 16:28:37 GMT -5
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Post by apple on Nov 30, 2023 16:26:47 GMT -5
Many nations specifically include a right to health or a right to health care in their Constitution. This does not mean every health care provider is on call 24/7. Access to healthcare means you can go to a GP, during their work hours or visit emergency otherwise. I think you are overthinking this. Am I? You are talking access during hours, or an ER after hours. That is fine. But if you make it a right, who is able to deny that right? And if it able to be denied, is it truly a right? Every right has a within reason expectation. Availability to access health care included. You make an appointment with your doctor, go to a walk in and if they are not open and the need is there, go to the local hospital emergency. Pretty much covers it. Other countries give this right, it does not by any stretch, mean health care providers are forced to be on call 24/7. |
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Date Joined: Aug 13, 2023 13:33:15 GMT -5
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Post by fuzzems on Nov 30, 2023 16:35:51 GMT -5
I think she is saying it can be provided, offered, etc but that doesn't make it a "right".
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Date Joined: May 20, 2022 16:28:37 GMT -5
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Post by apple on Nov 30, 2023 16:41:19 GMT -5
I think she is saying it can be provided, offered, etc but that doesn't make it a "right". Call it a left then.  |
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Date Joined: Aug 13, 2023 13:33:15 GMT -5
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Post by fuzzems on Nov 30, 2023 16:42:52 GMT -5
I think she is saying it can be provided, offered, etc but that doesn't make it a "right". Call it a left then. Government providing services doesn't make something a right. They pave the roads but I don't have some right to a paved road. |
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Date Joined: May 20, 2022 16:28:37 GMT -5
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Post by apple on Nov 30, 2023 16:50:03 GMT -5
Call it a left then. Government providing services doesn't make something a right. They pave the roads but I don't have some right to a paved road. Americans deserve access to health care. Call it what you want. |
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Date Joined: Mar 14, 2016 18:48:07 GMT -5
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Post by Springschick on Nov 30, 2023 16:52:26 GMT -5
Government providing services doesn't make something a right. They pave the roads but I don't have some right to a paved road. Americans deserve access to health care. Call it what you want. We have access to health care. Why do you think we don't? |
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Date Joined: May 20, 2022 16:28:37 GMT -5
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Post by apple on Nov 30, 2023 17:31:48 GMT -5
Americans deserve access to health care. Call it what you want. We have access to health care. Why do you think we don't? 27.6 million little birdies told me. Also 66.5 percent of all personal bankruptcies were tied to medical bills. That is troubling. So lets say...affordable health care. |
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Date Joined: Aug 13, 2023 13:33:15 GMT -5
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Post by fuzzems on Nov 30, 2023 17:37:13 GMT -5
Americans deserve access to health care. Call it what you want. We have access to health care. Why do you think we don't? I mean funny cuz i have had my tonsils out, C section, multiple tests and procedures and am having an MRI tomorrow. |
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Date Joined: Aug 13, 2023 13:33:15 GMT -5
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Post by fuzzems on Nov 30, 2023 17:43:03 GMT -5
I do agree that we could do better.
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